Revisiting the Wheel of Time: The Shadow Rising

I misspoke when I called this the Everybody Goes to Rhuidean book: it is, in fact, the Most People Go to Rhuidean, But Elayne and Nynaeve Go to Tanchico and Perrin Goes Home Book. For the first time in the series, the main characters don’t all draw back together for a single finale.

Which is kind of key, from a structural point of view. I said in my discussion of The Dragon Reborn that Jordan’s decision to not decide on series length was tantamount to taking the brake off the plot; to continue that metaphor, now he’s removed the steering wheel. There’s no longer any kind of balancing factor to keep the various parts of the narrative properly in harness. If the series had a predicted length, Jordan could have used that to decide when to complicate and when to conclude different strands; if he kept everybody together, that would have restrained the fractal growth and kept the length in check. Dump both of those, and you’re pretty much relying on instinct and a healthy dose of luck to make the whole thing hang together.

And we all know how well that worked out.

It has other ramifications for pacing, too. I’m indebted to John Scalzi for pointing out the natural consequence of multiple points of view: if you write a 120K book about one character, that’s 120K words of forward progress on that character’s plot, but if you split it among three points of view, now you’ve got only 40K devoted to each. Naturally it will feel like “less happens,” in terms of forward movement. The beginning of this book shows how you can partially get around that; a Rand pov scene will advance Rand’s plot, but a Perrin pov scene can do the same thing if Perrin’s hanging out with Rand. In fact, if you step back and look through The Shadow Rising, Rand doesn’t actually get much perspective — more than in TDR, but that’s not saying much — but the difference is that Perrin and Rand and Elayne and Egwene and various other characters spend time around him, so despite that lack of perspective, he doesn’t reprise his role as Sir Not Appearing in This Book. He appears; you just mostly aren’t in his head. Once people separate, though, it’s going to start slowing the plot down.

I think the splitting is why I never remember that TSR may be my favorite book. I remember the events in it, but I never remember that they are in it. I thought the Tanchico thing was part of TDR, until I re-read that one; then I reassigned it to TFoH. I thought the Tower schism happened in TFoH; holy crap it’s earlier than I remember. I kept half-assuming the first red stone doorway thing was in TDR, because in my head that’s the Tear book; then I assumed the second doorway was at the end of TSR, because in my head the entirety of TSR was the journey to Rhuidean. Imagine my surprise when they spend 200 pages in Tear, and then by page 300 they’re already at Rhuidean. Portal Stones for the win!

It’s my favorite book mostly because of Mat, but not entirely. Let’s start with the “bubbles of evil” at the beginning: random, sure, but they make for some pretty dramatic scenes. (Does anybody remember how much this reappears later on? I seem to recall it kind of falling by the wayside over time, even though by the explanation we get here they should increase in frequency and scope with each successive book. If they do fall away, well, this is what happens when you throw all your pacing controls out the window.) The ta’veren pull is likewise dramatic, especially when Perrin leaves during Rand’s Callandor scene. This book also starts to really develop the Aiel and (to a lesser extent) the Sea Folk, whom I’ve always liked. Admittedly, they’re problematic in that they’re “exotic;” if I recall correctly, the Sea Folk are the only non-white people that appear in the entire series. And the Aiel are treated much the same way, even though their coloration is northern European. (I wonder how long regional adaptation takes to evolve in the real world. They’ve been living in the desert for thousands of years, yo.) But they serve to partially counter one of the objections I have to Randland, which is that there isn’t much cultural variation: the differences between the countries are not as large as they should be, especially without a dominant institution like the Church to serve as a homogenizing force. (Whitecloaks and Aes Sedai really aren’t the same.) Aiel and Sea Folk society come across as genuinely different, in ways that make the setting feel more real to me. Now if they only spoke another language . . . but even the Seanchan don’t get that distinction, and they’ve been isolated for two millenia.

But anyway, Mat. He is, as I’ve said before, my favorite character, and this book has my favorite Mat bits of the whole series. I quite frankly love his two doorway trips. Both the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn come across as genuinely creepy, and Jordan pulls a nice stunt with the Old Tongue: like Mat, whose perspective we’re in, we have no idea he’s speaking the Old Tongue until Rand and Moiraine mention their language difficulties, after the fact. And these are the scenes where Mat’s nature becomes fully apparent, in the epic/mythical sense: the way he breaks the rules by getting more answers from the snake-people than he ought to get, the way they call him “trickster” and “gambler,” the military knowledge he gets from the fox-people.

And the Odin imagery. People have asked about this on previous posts, so here’s the rundown. The core component of it is what happens to Mat in Rhuidean: Rand finds him hanging from the World Tree. (Which I personally find to be one of the most dramatic moments in the whole series. Partly because I like Mat, and partly because it’s so unexpected and shocking.) On its own, that would be only a faint echo of Odin hanging from Yggdrasil, but remember also that Mat comes away from the experience with knowlege — battle knowledge, and Odin is, among other things, a god of war. Furthermore, the object Mat’s hanging from is a spear marked with two ravens and a verse in the Old Tongue that mentions thought and memory, which also happen to be the names of Odin’s ravens, Huginn and Muninn. Backing up a little bit, we’ve known since Book 1 that Mat’s going to lose an eye — elegantly phrased by the snake people as “to give up half the light of the world to save the world” — heck, Mat even picks up a wide-brimmed hat, which is pretty common in artistic depictions of Odin, especially Odin-as-Gangleri (“the wanderer”). He’s Odin and Loki, rolled into one.

On to the rest of the characters. (Which will take a while. If Wikipedia is to be believed, this is actually the longest book in the series — longer even than Lord of Chaos, though not by much.)

Rand’s end of things, we mostly get through other people’s pov: Mat and Egwene. I suspect this is partly because Jordan decided to develop the secondary characters more, but also because now we dive headfirst into Rand’s obsession with not letting anybody know what he thinks — including, it seems, the reader. (He also starts obsessing about being hard, which is doing to drive me crazy over the next few thousands of pages.) Harking back to something I was complaining about last book, Jordan at least gives us a reason why Rand shouldn’t listen to Moiraine, even if the text still falls short on convincing us he shouldn’t trust her: she’s totally wrong about meaning of the “forsaken city” prophecy. It kind of goes with the genre territory that Rand’s better off listening to his own instincts, since after all, he’s the one who’s destined to fulfill those prophecies. Still, it annoys me a little, because in reality, you’re better off listening to people most of the time.

The major thing here is what Rand sees in Rhuidean. And here, I have to give Jordan some props. Those chapters basically amount to an INFODUMP O’ DOOM: all the history of the Aiel and the Tuatha’an, their deal with the Cairhienin, the origin of all those ter’angreal — even the drilling of the Bore. It’s interesting and relevant to the story, but if Jordan had tried to deliver it in lecture form, via Rhuarc or Amys or whoever, it would have been tedious as hell. Fortunately, he hasn’t forgotten what he knew when he wrote the prologue to TEotW: to give a scene rather than a summary, with characters and conflict. I don’t think it’s perfectly executed, but the idea is solid, and the Memento-style structure, going successively backward in time, helps add a degree of mystery that keeps things moving. All in all, it’s a decent solution to the problem.

Perrin next, to finish off the boys. This is where the time spent building up Emond’s Field and its people pays off. I don’t think Jordan had this plotline in mind when he wrote TEotW — there’s nothing to indicate it, aside from the bare establishment of Manetheren = awesome — but it works pretty well. From a critical standpoint, I like how Perrin takes shape as a leader, even if it’s kind of blatantly wish-fulfillment/ta’veren ex machina that everybody follows him so readily. I also think Jordan pulls off a bit of a deft trick in the scene where Perrin finds out his whole family is dead. The inevitable grief needs to be postponed for structural reasons; as soon as it kicks in, the scene is pretty much over, and it would break narrative momentum to have that happen before various other things get dealt with. But you can’t delay Bran giving him the bad news for too long; it just wouldn’t make sense. Perrin’s shell-shocked delay comes across as plausible, and also lets the scene do what it needs to, all without seeming contrived.

The Luc/Slayer/Isam aspect of Perrin’s plot strikes me as an example of what I think of as the series’ Fractal Problem: Jordan’s continual tendency to complicate his narrative, to the detriment of his pacing. Is the idea interesting? Yes, and it gives Perrin something to do in the wolf dream — but in a hypothetical world where Jordan hadn’t removed both the brake and the steering wheel, I suspect this is the kind of idea that might have been left out. It isn’t like Perrin has nothing else to occupy him in the Two Rivers, with Bornhald and Fain/Ordeith both running around.

<obligatory pause to hate on Fain>

Faile . . . my core problem with her is that she doesn’t make sense. Seriously, I’ve spent time trying to figure out what personality traits and set of assumptions would give rise to her behavior, but I can’t find any coherent answer to that question. When she gets angry with Perrin, when she forgives him; when she goes along with his ideas, and when she digs her heels in — none of it follows any pattern I can see. It’s like half the time, Jordan asks himself what he thinks would be the rational response to the situation . . . then has Faile do the exact opposite. And then he (apparently) has Perrin spank her in retaliation — that’s all I can surmise from the aftermath of their altercation while traveling the Ways — which, really, just makes my head explode.

It annoys me all the more because I want to like Faile. On the surface of it, she’s the kind of character I usually enjoy. But Jordan doesn’t seem to have the faintest grasp what makes a character like that tick, and so the result is more often frustrating than entertaining.

Onward to the pov ladies. Not much to say about Egwene, except that I’m simultaneously looking forward to and dreading more of her training with the Wise Ones; I love digging into the nitty-gritty of the magic (both channeling and non-channel stuff like dreamwalking), but I know it means more rounds of humiliation and physical punishment, which Jordan seems to think are the inevitable pattern for female societies.

Elayne and Nynaeve are more interesting. What I find myself thinking about here is Jordan’s decision to give us pov for both Egeanin (twice, I think) and Jaichim Carridin (once). I’m not sure, but I think this section would be stronger if we were restricted to the protagonists. Most of what Egeanin’s pov conveys — her discoveries and conflicted feelings about sul’dam — comes through in her interactions with El and Nyn; the rest is either unimportant (so she hired Florian Gelb to search, so what) or covered by Suroth’s bit in the not-a-prologue Chapter One (the Seanchan haven’t given up). As for Carridin, we see the consequences of his actions play out in this book. The interesting part that doesn’t come out is the fact that he’s scheming (separately) with Liandrin and the King. What I want to know is, why couldn’t El and Nyn find that out? I don’t remember if there’s some later plot it would screw over if they knew, but I find that to be a weak answer anyway. It surely wouldn’t be unreasonably badass for them to find out, not with Thom and Juilin and Bayle Domon working for them, and not compared to the crap the boys are doing. Ultimately, I think it’s a consequence of the splintering pov situation: Jordan can use other perspectives to get this info across, so he does, instead of figuring out how to get his protagonists to discover it.

But I forgive him for it at least somewhat, because Nyneave freakin’ KICKS ASS against Moghedien. (And then apologizes for letting a Forsaken slip away while she was dodging balefire. Yes, Nynaeve, clearly you’re inadequate. <headdesk>)

Min’s an odd choice for perspective on the Tower, but the Accepted trio is busy elsewhere, and Siuan has what I (from personal experience) think of as the queen problem: she’s mostly busy doing the work of ruling, which means she gets her news through people reporting to her, rather than actually wandering the Tower, which is the more narratively interesting method. And Min, of course, has her viewings, which add a strong degree of tension. I think the reason I’m surprised to find the Tower splits in this book is because I — biased by later books — expected Jordan to spin it out for much longer. Seriously, I feel like four books from now, this would have taken three times as long, with lots of Siuan scenes showing her doing her thing, and lots of Elaida scenes showing her running around plotting, and lots of Min scenes showing her not being able to do much about it. Instead, it strikes almost out of nowhere. It’s almost too fast — Siuan doesn’t come off looking too savvy, being taken that much by surprise — but it’s a lot more horrifying because it happens so abruptly. More Elaida pov would have ruined the effect.

I was going to conclude by talking about women in general — the girls, Lanfear, Faile, Min, the Aiel and the Sea Folk — but the more I think about it, the more I think that’s a post in its own right. (Especially since this one is already so long.) That may or may not happen before I get to The Fires of Heaven (which is the book where I really don’t remember anything that happens in it) in a couple of months; we’ll just have to see.

0 Responses to “Revisiting the Wheel of Time: The Shadow Rising”

  1. Anonymous

    Yep, this was my favorite book. It was also the last or second-to-last that I read… I may have read the next book, then decided I actually didn’t want several thousand more pages of this stuff. It was too much headdesk, not enough awesome.

    • Marie Brennan

      It helped that I had a group of friends also reading the books, and I didn’t pick up the series until just before the seventh book came out. (Also, I was in high school, so hadn’t started thinking critically about a lot of things yet.)

      • Anonymous

        Yeah, I was trying to go solo, and I didn’t care enough to slog it out. And I wasn’t thinking critically at all when I quit: I was headdesking entirely over annoying and repetitive plot elements.

  2. laurelwen

    if I recall correctly, the Sea Folk are the only non-white people that appear in the entire series.

    I would like to note that the Seanchan are racially diverse, with skin tones ranging from very dark to very light. Other than that…yeah, it’s European-land, with some slight Asian tendencies up near the Blight.

    The bubbles of evil do occasionally appear in some forms later on in the series, but usually just in the background rather than directly impacting the main characters.

    As for Faile…she makes me want to vomit blood. She’s one half of why I don’t normally enjoy the Perrin plots. (The other half is Perrin, who is too often just…meh.)

    • Marie Brennan

      I would like to note that the Seanchan are racially diverse

      Thanks for the correction. (One wonders where their dark-skinned people came from. Sea Folk ancestry? Or was there a local population that got conquered by Hawkwing’s armies?) I wouldn’t be surprised if the folks over in Shara are also non-white, but to the point that I’ve read (CoT) none of them have shown up in the story.

      The bubbles of evil do occasionally appear in some forms later on in the series, but usually just in the background rather than directly impacting the main characters.

      That was kind of what I recalled, yeah, but my memory is fuzzy enough that I couldn’t be sure. So it is, in fact, the direct opposite of what Moiraine describes here: instead of them coming more and more often, and the strongest focus of bubbles being on the ta’veren protagonists, they fall out of the picture, except when they randomly happen to the extras.

      As for Faile…she makes me want to vomit blood. She’s one half of why I don’t normally enjoy the Perrin plots. (The other half is Perrin, who is too often just…meh.)

      He gets stuck in this atrocious cycle of stupidity with Faile and Berelain, and takes forever to get out of it — which I think is at least partly a pacing problem, the result of Jordan losing control of how his different narrative strands balance against one another. It’s not so much that I dislike the macro structure of what happens with him (relationship issues aside); it’s that the execution of that structure is not very efficiently or effectively done.

      One comment I meant to make about Faile, but which accidentally got cut when I decided to postpone a big feminist discussion for a separate post — she feels like the most concrete embodiment of Jordan’s conviction that women are incomprehensible creatures who never tell men what they’re really thinking. She has moments of not sucking, but they tend to be the moments that have nothing to do with gender politics — so, nothing to do with Perrin or Berelain — and they really just end up making me hate her moments of extreme suckitude that much more.

      • Marie Brennan

        Actually, I take back what I said about liking the macro structure of Perrin’s plot. Why? Because now that I think about it, I can’t remember a damn thing he does after this book. Has problems with Whitecloaks and such — I know Faile gets kidnapped at one point — but the specifics, they are gone from my memory. My recollection of Perrin’s plot was “he goes back and becomes the Lord of the Two Rivers,” but that’s already been covered. I have no idea if I like what happens later.

      • laurelwen

        Yeah, Faile is a character that I should like…but don’t. She mostly just annoys me, even when she’s not being ridiculously overblown.

        On the other hand, Min seems to have a lot of the same qualities: feistiness, asskickery, intelligence, doesn’t take any guff from her man, strong-willed, etc., but I like her so much more. She suffers from much less arbitrary “wimminfolk irrationality” than Faile and a lot of the other female characters.

        • Marie Brennan

          What’s the most frustrating is that various other female characters didn’t originally suffer from (as you excellently phrase it) “arbitrary wimminfolk irrationality” — they just developed it over time. When I’m feeling charitable, I chalk it up to Jordan not being the best at characterization, and over time he lost his grip on what made those women distinct from one another. When I’m feeling pissy, I think the change was Jordan’s idea of them “maturing” into grown women — who, as we know, are all exactly alike.

  3. unforth

    Huh…this post as much as anything screams that I don’t remember TSR nearly as well as I thought I did; particularly, I don’t think I remembered that a lot of the Rand bits aren’t actually from Rand’s PoV.

    I probably don’t have time to answer this fully right now, as I have to go in 20 minutes, but I feel bad that I never actually typed up my TDR response, so I’ll take a stab at getting started.

    First, just to toss out what I remember of this book (some of it might be ragingly inaccurate, but it’s what’ll be coloring my response, so it should be out there):
    -as we’ve discussed, my absolutely favorite scene in the entire series is in this book, re: Rand’s bubble of evil near the beginning, and also how others respond to it.
    -at this point, I find the Aiel interesting, I liked Aviendha to begin with, I continue to detest Faile, I thought that Moiraine started to get marginalized.
    -I like the Rhuidean stuff, and in terms of powerful, evocative scenes, I’m especially fond of the scene at the meeting place whose name I forget, when the jerk Aiel (Couladin or something, right?) tries to say he’s the DR, and Rand is just like, “bitch, please” in such a calm way. I really feel that it’s the first time Rand demonstrates the leadership potential that is inherent to him, rather than what is ta’averen or what is Moiraine/Thom’s advice. (ie, while his final orders on leaving Tear are pretty good, he could never have nipped all those plots in the bud without Thom’s input).
    -I don’t remember which girls’ plot is in this book at all. If I hadn’t just read the above, I literally couldn’t have told anything about what Min, Nynaeve or Elayne were doing (I knew Egwene was with Rand, that’s about it).
    -I kinda like Perrin’s plot, but it also encompasses one of my greatest disappointments of the series, namely that no one at any point sits Tam down and tells him what’s going on with his son. In the same way that you mention that Perrin obviously HAD to be told about his family, it strikes me as abso-fraggin-lutely inconceivable that Perrin doesn’t have the cahones to tell Tam what’s happened to Rand, and it pisses the hell out of me.

    Right. That done, it touches on some of what I might have said more directly to individual points, but here goes.

    It’s my favorite book

    Me too. I think this is the only book that I really felt like the fragmenting of the PoV actually added something. As you point out, we switch to, say, Egwene PoV, but in a way that still advances everyone elses PoV. Or, another example, Jordan builds interest and tension by showing us Mat’s Rhuidean experience (which was surely the most interesting) and leaving what the other two did there mysterious – whereas in a later book I’d half expect him to PoV out all three scenes. Unfortunately, in the next few books, the PCs (as I’ll call them) split up to SUCH an extent that this way of moving multiple pc’s plots ceases to work, and I think it’s why it drags so bad – when the 120k book has to forward 7 or 8 different plots, that’s just not much progress on any of them – and why things like “Mat spends this book under a wall” start to happen – I think it’s flat out unavoidable at that point.

    • unforth

      But TSR maintains a balance, while introducing a lot of new and interesting stuff, forwarding the personalities of the PCs (for better or for worse…) etc., etc. I like that the girls get to kick some ass (now that I’m reminded of it), I really like the way it shows Rand getting awesomer, and I like the way it starts to show how the enemies are getting “easier,” without making them totally wuss out (isn’t this the book where are drakyar or whatever they’re called actually almost manages to kill someone? I mean, in most series, by the fifth book, something that was omg scary in the first book would have become the enemy you kill by accident while aiming for the big scary – yet at the same time TSR begins to reveal the relative power levels of, say, the Forsaken, which has always been protrayed as all absolutely terrifying, yet clearly Asmodean just isn’t up to snuff, and it raises questions about the others. All in all, I just felt that TSR was really well balanced while still being blatantly EPIC.

      By the way, as far as I know, it is the longest. Some of the others might appear to have longer page counts, but an examination of the printing demonstrates that the text is denser in TSR. I think someone just didn’t want the books to LOOK like they were getting shorter. God knows why.

      Right, I have to go, I’ll see if I can’t think of anything clever to say about the rest – but it’s kinda hard to get all debating about a book I like this much, when you pretty much liked it too. 😉

      • Marie Brennan

        PCs is a good term for them. (The difficulty is deciding who counts as a PC. The Emond’s Fielders, certainly; Min, and Elayne, and Aviendha later on; what about Moiraine? Or Siuan? Huh, making that list causes me to realize that the additional povs seem to skew pretty heavily female. I’m having trouble thinking of male perspectives, beyond the three boys, that #1 aren’t antagonists and #2 carry any substantial weight. Thom, but I don’t think his profile is anything like, say, Min’s.)

        I really like the way it shows Rand getting awesomer

        Though I have to say, by the time we get to his fight with Asmodean, the schtick of “Rand just does complicated channeling things on instinct” has started to get old. Yes, you can explain it with Lews Therin — in fact, Rand’s confrontation with Lanfear at the beginning of TSR includes the first clear instance of knowledge that can only have come from that source — but I’m glad he gets Asmodean as a teacher, because it helps make Rand a bit less Gary Stu-ish when it comes to just knowing how to do these complex things that have been lost for millenia.

        it starts to show how the enemies are getting “easier,”

        Remember the days when a Trolloc was scary? <g>

        The Draghkar does kill somebody (Seana, one of the non-channeling Wise Ones). And as long as there’s an infinite supply of Trollocs, they can be a threat; Rand only occasionally manages to nuke them all the way he did in Tear. On the other hand, as you say, Asmodean’s not really all that. Sure, he’d wipe the floor with your average Aes Sedai, but against the protagonists, his main advantage is knowledge: he has tricks up his sleeve they’ve never seen, and don’t know how to counter. (Unless they’re Rand, who can do whatever the plot needs him to.) The Forsaken are, structurally speaking, good antagonists in that way; they’re strong, but in many cases the real threat comes from their knowledge and sneaky tactics, which means dealing with them isn’t a simple matter of hurling fireballs until somebody drops.

        I think someone just didn’t want the books to LOOK like they were getting shorter. God knows why.

        Because by the time the shrinkage happened, the fanbase was a group for whom the length was a feature, not a bug. If you had to wait two or three or four years for a book, and then what you got was half the length you were expecting? People wouldn’t like that. So they changed the typesetting to keep the physical object large, even if the story wasn’t. (Wikipedia cites page counts, chapter counts, and word counts here.)

        • unforth

          Okies! As promised, a month later, here are my further responses! I’m really sorry about the very long delay time, I’ve just been writing so much for work the last 6 weeks or so that when I stop writing for work, I look at other writing and my brain goes, “don’t wanna!”

          Who are PCs?
          I’d say anyone who gets extended PoV shots (not long numbers of pages, but multiple chapters, over multiple books) would count as a PC. I hate that this is the case, but I’d have to say it is. That would make it the three boys, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, Minh, Moiraine and Siuan (neither of whom start as PCs, but they transition to it), likewise Thom (there aren’t many, but I know there are a few scattered chapters from his point of view), possibly Lan (though we never actually get much of his PoV that I recall). I wish that Loial was one, but he’s not…actually, you haven’t mentioned Loial, I’m going to toss out that I think for me, he’s the best character that just…isn’t…in the series. He had so much potential, but then he wanders off with Perrin and ceases to do anything interesting at all. Anyway, for PCs, that…might be it. It’s a little hard to judge, though, there are so damn many characters. I’ll toss out that I think that having a PoV in one of the horrifying intro chapters would pretty much disqualify the character from being a PC. 😉

          Rand’s Getting More Awesome:
          Just to defend him slightly, yes, it’s pretty true that he can do whatever the plot needs him to, but…Lews Therin! …no, but really, my issue with Rand’s ever-increasing degree of skill isn’t that it happens, but that, well…I like to think I use my time pretty well. In most days, I find time to do my day job and follow several hobbies at a decent level of skill. I KNOW that if I pushed harder, I could do way more. However, I find it very, very hard to believe that in the space of a couple years, Rand finds enough time to practice his way to “epic” level in so many different and unrelated skills, while still doing all of the plot stuff. If he’s spending all of DR walking to Tear, by definition he’s NOT spending it practicing the sword 4 hours a day, or working on different weaves, or testing his manipulation skills, and yet, in TSR, he’s somehow considerably better at all of these things. Of course, much like organized religion, Jordan wrote in the “faith manages” excuses: it’s Lews Therin, it’s ta’averen, etc., etc…what I will say is that Rand does start to level off, especially around LoC (if I recall), after Asmodean is dead…

          • Marie Brennan

            I’d say anyone who gets extended PoV shots (not long numbers of pages, but multiple chapters, over multiple books) would count as a PC.

            I think I might refine it a bit more than that, because Siuan feels PC-ish to me while Moiraine doesn’t. Might be simply that Moiraine’s been gone for half the series, but I think it’s because Siuan’s pov is used to show a Siuan-specific plot: a conflict and/or goal that is personal to her (and not villain material). Moiraine doesn’t really have that; her pov is just used to expand on Rand stuff, at least that I recall.

            Loial occurred to me as a male character who very plausibly could have gotten pov rights, but didn’t. He did get underused in general.

            Rand’s awesomeness can be handwaved, yes — but there’s a part of me that would have preferred it not to be, so there would have been more a sense of struggle, that he (and to be fair, the girls) have to fight harder for their knowledge and skill.

      • Marie Brennan

        Because I’m procrastinating on things I should be doing: TSR has the highest words-per-page (391), and Winter’s Heart has the lowest (298). So, in a sense, WH delivers about 25% less book than it appears to; the pages carry less story not just in a pacing sense, but in actual wordage. ACoS, TPoD, and CoT are also distinctly less dense than the rest of the series. So it’s no accident that people perceive that stretch of the series as being the part where Nothing Happens: between the fractal branching of the narrative and the decreased density of the books, a lot less does happen.

    • Marie Brennan

      I don’t think I remembered that a lot of the Rand bits aren’t actually from Rand’s PoV.

      Yup. Which I actually take as a sign that the structure is well-integrated: the different pieces actually support each other, which they don’t do so well in later books.

      -as we’ve discussed, my absolutely favorite scene in the entire series is in this book, re: Rand’s bubble of evil near the beginning, and also how others respond to it.

      It is a pretty good scene. All three of them are, really — just trippy enough to be exciting — but Rand gets sliced up by his, which raises the stakes a bit. (Him being your favorite character also doesn’t hurt.)

      I thought that Moiraine started to get marginalized

      She does, and it’s not just a structural accident, either. Rand kind of treats her like shit this book, allowing her to follow him around, but not much else. I think I’d be more okay with it if we got Moiraine pov, showing us that she’s still busy out of his sight; or if she didn’t vanish at the end of the next book, so we could justify her marginalization as her biding time until the chance to act comes along. But as it stands, Rand comes across as rather a bastard to her.

      I’m especially fond of the scene at the meeting place whose name I forget

      Alcair Dal, and yeah, it’s pretty good. Especially because it’s an instance where I can actually get behind Rand ignoring what everybody else thinks he should do; he’s right to go there early, he’s right to bring an army, and he’s probably right to tell everybody the true history of the Aiel, because it’s the one way he can conclusively prove to the clan chiefs which of them actually went to Rhuidean, and doing it publicly robs them of the chance to pretend it isn’t true.

      I don’t remember which girls’ plot is in this book at all.

      Me neither — as you can tell. I didn’t think the narrative started really fragmenting until TFoH, which is why I thought all those plots happened later.

      no one at any point sits Tam down and tells him what’s going on with his son

      Having re-read the book now, I’ve got to side with you on this one. Perrin’s delay makes sense — he doesn’t want to say it in front of whoever walks in, I think it’s Alanna — but it only works if that’s building tension for a reveal later in the book. If what you told me is right, six books later Tam STILL hasn’t been told. And even if that’s not true, deferring it entirely from this book was, I think, a mistake.

      why things like “Mat spends this book under a wall” start to happen – I think it’s flat out unavoidable at that point.

      Yep. I believe the next book is Perrin’s under-a-wall equivalent, as Jordan just drops him entirely in favor of advancing other parts of the story. The basic principle is sound — if it’s going to be (say) two months before a given plot has its next interesting development, I’d rather spend the intervening time reading about the plots that are moving forward — but when the elision lasts for a whole book, it’s a bit jarring. (And it’s worse when what you come back to is not, in fact, an interesting new development, but backfill of the missing time.)

      • unforth

        It is a pretty good scene. All three of them are, really
        Agreed. As a teen, I was so Rand-oriented that I tended to overlook the awesomeness in the scenes of others, but in truth, all three of those scenes are excellent, and they built really well. I think that if I was reading it for the first time as an adult, I’d think exactly what Mat and Perrin think – that it’s all Rand’s doing. The only thing that might have actually given it a bit more of a punch would have been omitting my favorite part: if Perrin had walked in to Rand’s bedroom without us having seen the PoV of the battle, prepared to give Rand a piece of his mind, only to find him bleeding to death on the floor. But I won’t advocate leaving out my fav. 😉

        I think that marginalization of Moiraine is in some way meant to show the “moving beyond what the experienced adult can tell them” stage: her relative impotence in this book comes reminds me of a kinda one dimensional attempt to show coming of age…but not in a way that really fits, so it just comes off as being kind of out of character for both her AND Rand. I mean, my memory is that when Cadsuane comes along, she rips Rand a new one easily. Moiraine seemed in the earlier books like she had the strength of character to do the same, and yet my memory is that she spends most of TSR pouting in the corner of the nearest Aiel wagon. I guess I’m not sure how Rand should have responded to her differently, yet his response doesn’t really make sense either. I forget – is this before or after she promises to do what he says? Cause I think his best course would have been to order her off to somewhere that she can be of use, but for some reason he trusts her so little that he won’t let her out of sight, and it makes no sense, cause she’s never done ANYTHING to earn his distrust. I mean, I can’t think of a damn thing. Can you?

        And as of the last book I’ve read (errr…Winter’s Heart, maybe? The “let’s clean Saidin!” book) Tam has still not been spoken to, and it makes me want to scream.

        Okay! That answers your answers to my quick notes! Now for the main post. 😉

        • Marie Brennan

          The only thing that might have actually given it a bit more of a punch would have been omitting my favorite part: if Perrin had walked in to Rand’s bedroom without us having seen the PoV of the battle, prepared to give Rand a piece of his mind, only to find him bleeding to death on the floor. But I won’t advocate leaving out my fav. 😉

          It’s a catch-22 I’ve seen in other books, and encountered in my own work: on the one hand, you want to show the exciting thing, but on the other, there’s a fun effect to be had by having someone walk in on the aftermath. In this case, I think it would have been a mistake to just have Perrin see the aftermath, because Rand is the central character, and moreover one who got neglected in the previous book, but (like Mat’s hanging) it would have been a pretty awesome shock.

          Moiraine: yes, I think it’s meant to show Rand growing up, but it feels like he’s grown up to the age of a fourteen-year-old rebellious dick. 🙂 My impression is that her backing off was supposed to be, not a lack of ability to rip Rand a new one, but a tactical move on her part; she’s giving him some breathing space because she thinks it will be more effective. It would have worked better, though, if we got her pov and saw her doing something, rather than just waiting.

          As for him distrusting her, we’ve already been over Jordan’s failure to sell that logic. He continues to fail, and worse, here.

  4. Anonymous

    I do understand people’s frustration as the WoT started spinning out-of-control, especially as one or two books has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAPPEN, but I think there is something to be said for a sprawling, let’s-cut-the-breaks-and-throw-out-the-steering-wheel-and-go-WHEEEE!-down-the-hill epic. And I don’t think Jordan didn’t know where he was going or what he was doing, he just suddenly realized he’d get a chance to put all of this stuff he had in his head actually on the page and went with it. Even still, apparently, there’s tons of stuff that will either never see print or be compiled in an Encyclopedia. One can’t say his world isn’t vividly and deeply imagined.

    Faile is definitely a… controversial character, especially, it seems, with women. I, at least, think once you learn more about how Saldeans, and her family in particular, are ABSOLUTELY INSANE, you can get a little bit more of a handle on it.

    As for racial diversity, yes Randland proper is quite white, but the Borderlands has a lot of Asian, and Tarabon and Arad Domon are more than a little Arabic.

    • Marie Brennan

      I have nothing against a sprawling narrative, but there’s an art to sprawling-with-effect; if cutting the brake lines and throwing out the steering wheel means you forget various plot strands or let things stall for books on end or, y’know, fail to have stuff happen, then that’s not good. I want to go to the alternate world where Jordan wrote this whole series, let it sit for ten years, then went back with a really good editor and figured out how to juggle his cast of thousands and multi-stranded plot into a more muscular whole.

      And I don’t think Jordan didn’t know where he was going or what he was doing, he just suddenly realized he’d get a chance to put all of this stuff he had in his head actually on the page and went with it.

      Which is the problem. Any time an author writes a book, he or she has to make decisions about which ideas to include, and which ones to leave out. Some things get left out because they aren’t very interesting, but others fail to make the cut simply because they don’t serve the greater whole well enough: introducing this complication would mean delaying that resolution long enough that it would lose its emotional impact. Or such-and-such subplot would drag the narrative focus too far away from the central characters. Etc. I don’t disagree that the world is vivid; I’ve spent time in previous posts talking about how the expansiveness of the world is one of the things I like about it. And as of this book, that expansiveness is still enriching the narrative. But I think the structural choices made in this and the previous book create the problem seen in later books, which is that the expansiveness gets out of his control, to the detriment of the overall story. He keeps cultivating neat-looking trees, while the forest turns into an impassable jungle.

      I, at least, think once you learn more about how Saldeans, and her family in particular, are ABSOLUTELY INSANE, you can get a little bit more of a handle on it.

      It’s been long enough since I read the later books that I don’t remember the details, but I know they didn’t fix the problem for me. I’ll give it a better look when I get there, though.

      As for racial diversity, yes Randland proper is quite white, but the Borderlands has a lot of Asian, and Tarabon and Arad Domon are more than a little Arabic.

      I feel like they have a thin wash of generic Asian-ness over them, but it’s little more than cosmetic. (And I don’t see anything Arabic; heck, they even use chopsticks in Tarabon.)

      • Anonymous

        Obviously as a (very accomplished, wonderful) writer, you know much more about how to make book structures than I do. Some of it is taste, as well; I’m a sucker for overdetail. (Sometimes I think I’d rather read a “non-fiction” fiction work than a narrative.) And I don’t disagree with the criticisms. I do sometimes take umbrage at the “he needed a good editor” because I feel that’s a shot at his wife. I’ve also seen in the past two books lots of stuff that he set up looooooooooooong before suddenly coming to fruition, which is why I say he didn’t not know what he was doing. Really, sometimes I think he could be too subtle for his own good.

        About racial diversity: I actually hit “Post Comment” before I finished. I wanted to add that Seanchan is racially diverse (Tuon is black), the Sea Folk are… Polynesian? (I’ve actually never quite figured out what “race” they’re “supposed” to be), and the Sharans are definitely African-tinged (we see two of them in Graendal’s palace for like two seconds in one of the later books).

        • Marie Brennan

          I do sometimes take umbrage at the “he needed a good editor” because I feel that’s a shot at his wife.

          That certainly isn’t what I mean by it. If anything, the fault lies with whoever his editor was at Tor — but given how much money this series has hauled in, “fault” is a relative word. From a business standpoint, further editing might not have been worth the cost.

          I’ve also seen in the past two books lots of stuff that he set up looooooooooooong before suddenly coming to fruition, which is why I say he didn’t not know what he was doing. Really, sometimes I think he could be too subtle for his own good.

          I’ve always said that his handling of prophecy — fragments of foreshadowing, planted well in advance of their resolution — is one of the best things about the series. The problem, as I see it, is this: Jordan knew his start and end points, but kept on expanding the middle. In between 1 and 2, he added in 1.5 . . . then 1.6 and 1.7 . . . then 1.71-1.79 . . . it’s like the Zeno’s Paradox of plotting.

          Racial diversity: the problem is that the non-whites are all exotic, mysteeeerious Others. I think it’s a telling point that the one “exotic” group who get a semi-central rather than fringe positioning (the Aiel, from whom Our Hero is partially descended) also have inappropriately European coloring. (Light hair, light eyes, light skin — all are a really bad idea in a desert environment, no matter how well you tan.) What if the Aiel had been black instead? It would have made Rand too much of an Other, is what. But I would have loved to see Jordan actually tackle that, rather than uncritically replicating the pattern of epic fantasy, which is that the white guys are always the heroes, and everybody else is just there to provide a bit of color.

          • Anonymous

            Yes, sadly, as series get popular, they get less and less editorial restraint. Just look at what happened to Laurell K. Hamilton!

            “Zeno’s Paradox of Plotting” is one of the best descriptions of it I’ve ever seen. And as much as I seem to be arguing with you, I do agree with a lot of the criticisms, especially this one. It’s just that I’ve enjoyed the ride, so I guess in the end it doesn’t bother me as much as it should.

            I agree that his handling of prophecy is one of the best I’ve read in fantasy. I’m really more talking about “So that’s what that character was up to way back then! That makes sense now.” stuff. Considering how tangled his jungle got, it amazes me that he still manages to pull it off a lot, especially in the last few books where things start happening again.

            There is definitely not too much tackling of the epic fantasy racial problems, though perhaps more than he’s given credit for, but I think I read once that Jordan gave the Aiel the unlikely coloring they have precisely because he wanted to go against racial expectations. He set up a society based on Native American and Zulu tribes, and then made them all a bunch of gingers.

            I also wanted to say, in response to your talking about how Jordan’s penchant for making women inscrutable, that I definitely think he bought into something that drives me mad about sexual relations in the past few decades: that each sex is just totally boggled by the other and can never hope to understand them. The women in the WoT have about as much clue about men as the men do about women, which is none. Which is all bull, because I don’t think men and women are really THAT dissimilar. Humans are just weird, and we can’t get inside each other’s heads; gender isn’t really the main determinant in that.

          • Marie Brennan

            I think I read once that Jordan gave the Aiel the unlikely coloring they have precisely because he wanted to go against racial expectations.

            Because I am cynical about the treatment of race in epic fantasy, I can’t help but believe that on a subconscious level, at least, the fact that Rand is half Aiel also contributed to making them white. Sure, the basic idea goes against racial expectations — but then it comes around and reinforces them on the back end.

            I also wanted to say, in response to your talking about how Jordan’s penchant for making women inscrutable, that I definitely think he bought into something that drives me mad about sexual relations in the past few decades: that each sex is just totally boggled by the other and can never hope to understand them.

            I kind of want to shoot whoever originated the phrase “men are from Mars, women are from Venus.” >_<

            But that will be a separate post. There’s just too much to explore on that front for me to fit it into the discussion of a given book — especially this one, the longest of the bunch. Anyway, keep an eye on the “wheel of time” tag; I’ll get around to it eventually.

  5. unforth

    On length and dispersion:
    I think it’s also a sign that the editing got less tight. I’ve read enough long series to recognize that there comes a point when a series gets REALLY successful that the editor starts to defer to the author, or perhaps the author’s self editing gets worse, or something. I’m not sure how this gets implemented, but I do know that it’s always really noticeable (with HP being the most obvious to me with this, the loose ends start to wriggle free in the later books, with things happening that take a lot of pages but have no added value, and it’s only her skill as a story teller that keeps it all from unraveling). The books after TSR (and especially after LoC) are where this happens flagrantly for WoT – no outside party feels that they have the responsibility to step in and try to rein in the horses stampeding in all direction, yet surely there WAS someone whose responsibility it was. But it’s too late now…

    Bubbles of evil: They do appear later, but they happen to background characters. My memory of Moiraine’s description of the bubbles is that they’d be most attracted to the boys, but would start happening to everyone. I guess the decision was that if they kept happening to the PCs, the story would never get anywhere. It almost feels like the kind of thing we would normally reasonably assume was happening off camera, except that nothing happens off camera in the later books. That said, there’s also the chance-skewing that happens where ever any of the boys are (ala Rand’s trail of weddings and what-not on his way to Tear) which is pretty much impossible to differentiate from the bubbles of evil…so I guess I’m not sure. 

    As a throw away point in defense of the Aiel’s not adapting darker melanin, my impression of them has always been that they were border-line genetic engineered in the Age of Legends…they might not have enough genetic diversity to make that change in that amount of time. Indeed, in terms of PHYSICAL diversity…it goes much, much slower than cultural diversity does. The end of the last age was a massive population bottleneck effect, which has the dual effect of vastly limiting genetic diversity and leaving small, isolated, clearly different populations scattered around – which does seem to have been what happens. With the reduced diversity, none of the populations would adapt quickly. Culture, on the other hand, adapts very quickly regardless, which you know way better than I.  The only shared “institution” I would suggest is instead a shared experience: the memories of the end of the last age. But that’s only a weak link.

    (yay, Odin imagery!)

    • unforth

      Skipping over a few points because I agree with them, and don’t have anything to add, I’m jumping down to Luc/Slayer/Isam. I’d managed to completely forget this element of the Two Rivers plot, which is funny since I thought I remembered that plot line relatively well (considering it’s not a Rand plot, anyway…I remember Rand plots way better in general because the first time I read all of the early books, and often when I re-read them later, I would skim or occasionally just flat-out skip the non-Rand plot. Obviously I no longer do that, but it means whereas I’ve read TSR probably around 10 times, I’ve actually only read the secondary characters stuff two or three times…still a lot, but I’ve got a lousy memory). So…I have this idea in my head that Luc/Slayer/Isam is…er…a son of…Lan’s relatives? Or something? Am I remembering right? …I kinda hated all of that plot, actually, because I have yet to figure out what it adds at any point – as you point out. It doesn’t add to Perrin’s plot, it doesn’t add to Lan and Nynaeve’s plot…I don’t really have a clue what it does, other than “ooooh, look, Dark One, eeeevil, don’t go to Shayol Ghul!” as if we didn’t already get that…

      I don’t have it in me to spend any time engaging on Faile. I just hate her so much. And I think what you say here is the analysis of why that I’ve always hated her too much to bother making – she doesn’t make ANY sense; that Perrin would care for her ALSO doesn’t make ANY sense; that anyone would want to come within 10 miles of her – much less that she’d somehow mysteriously make FRIENDS with the other women makes less than no sense, and always made me question the sense of all of the female characters who like her. I feel like Faile is the fundamental expression of everything that Jordan doesn’t understand about women, wrapped up in to one big bundle and thrust on a suffering audience. And it’s sad, because I suspect that the flaws of the other female characters wouldn’t show quite as badly if we didn’t have Faile there to make Jordan’s shortcomings so flagrantly clear.

      This brings me to thinking, though: my favorite female character has always been Min. She’s the only one I ever identified with. But, of course, Jordan wrote her as the tomboy – which is to say that he wrote her with what I imagine he thinks is the incongruous purpose of having her “think like a boy.” Yet…she’s the most believable and the most interesting (except occasionally when she slips into being the same kind of silly twit the others are, which, unsurprisingly, happens when she acts “like a girl.”) All of which is to say…Jordan clearly has some bizarre belief that women think completely differently, yet his girl who thinks “like a boy” is the most believable, ergo, he’s pretty wrong. This gives me hope for trying to write a series with a male main character…… 

      • Marie Brennan

        Luc/Slayer/Isam: I had to refresh my memory on the Wheel of Time wiki, actually. The operating theory (which I guess hasn’t been fully settled as of KoD or TGS, because the wiki still phrased it tentatively) is that he’s some form of mashup between Lan’s cousin Isam Mandragoran and Rand’s uncle Luc Mantear, who ran into each other in the Blight and then went horribly wrong somehow. That’s why he generally resembles Rand in the real world and Lan in Tel’aran’rhiod.

        Faile: your reference to her befriending other women reminds me that, oddly enough, the most convincing romance I’ve yet found in this re-read is Chiad and Gaul. Probably because it’s 98% offstage, so my imagination gets to embroider from a small set of starting points, but they do the “bickering affection” thing better than Faile and Perrin do. I was legitimately amused by the passing bit where Loial brings Gaul back injured, and Gaul protests the Maidens helping him walk, whereupon there’s a paraphrased line from Chiad to the effect of “Quit complaining, Stone Dog, or I’ll say I’ve touched you armed and let you decide how your honor stands.” It was a nice little use of Aiel customs, and it didn’t come across as bitchy, either.

        Min and Faile are a pair, I think, in terms of being the tomboy characters (plus Birgitte when she shows up) — and oddly, they share the setup of having wildly inappropriate given names, Elmindreda and Zarine — but Jordan goes wildly wrong with Faile, and I’m still not sure why. Because he decided to make her more feminine than Min? Or because he never achieved the sympathy for her that he did for Min? Faile doesn’t get pov until way late, maybe Crossroads of Twilight even, while Min gets it practically from the start, I think in TGH. Some of that is structural, Min being separated from the usual pov characters, while Faile’s mostly with Perrin, but that hasn’t stopped Jordan before; I can’t help but think he would have given Faile pov if he’d actually liked her as a person.

    • unforth

      …I forgot about Juilin. I like Juilin. 

      I — biased by later books — expected Jordan to spin it out for much longer
      I think you’ll find when you get to the later books that this doesn’t work quite the way you remember it. My memory is (and it’ll be interesting which, if either of us, is right!) that it’s not that things get dragged out in the later books, but that somehow all the words get used and nothing happens. Like, when the events happen, they manage to be paced very similarly, but there’s a lot of wasted time in between where we see lots of conversations that either don’t matter at all, or could have been summed up. I feel like this is in contrast to your memory, which is that the PoV would split and we would see everyone’s angle of “the event” – whatever the event is – whereas my memory is that it’s more the build up to events that drag, whereas the events happen much as they do in earlier books. Of course, there’s also the problem that Jordan forgets that a good books needs “an event” to make it compelling, and there are – er…two? – books that don’t seem to really have events. Or at least nothing that wouldn’t have been a mid-way event (instead of a climactic event) in an earlier book. Unsurprisingly, I think we’ll find that the later books that are at all interesting are those that have events. (ie, cleansing Saidin…)

      I don’t envy you trying to organize your thoughts for a post just about the women….it’s just such a massive problem.

      • Marie Brennan

        I feel like this is in contrast to your memory, which is that the PoV would split and we would see everyone’s angle of “the event” – whatever the event is – whereas my memory is that it’s more the build up to events that drag, whereas the events happen much as they do in earlier books.

        Actually, that’s what I meant; I wasn’t precise enough. I didn’t expect the actual coup to take longer — you’re right, those things happen fast. What I did expect was another six chapters or so of everybody setting up for the event, exhaustive coverage of stuff that doesn’t matter or that we’d be better off not knowing, before he finally works up the nerve to pull the trigger. I can kind of understand it, actually; I can tell in my own work that sometimes I’m being too detailed about how and why and when and where things are going to happen, rather than just cutting to the exciting bit and trusting the readers to trust me that the setup happened offstage. Sometimes it’s because I’m not quite sure yet where things are going, and sometimes it’s because I’m tired and so I fill my wordcount out with lazy words, but either way, it’s the sort of thing that ought to be cut in the editing stage, and really wasn’t after a while here.

    • Marie Brennan

      The editing is definitely less tight. There can be a lot of reasons for it, including authorial clout, burnout, and maybe an interest in getting the books to the shelves as fast as possible once the writing of them slowed down, but the result is the same either way.

      The bubbles were supposed to gravitate to the ta’veren the most, so I count them as falling by the wayside even if they do occasionally get referenced as happening to random bystanders.

      The Aiel: I don’t disagree with the logic; I just say it’s post facto justification of Jordan’s decision to make them white. And that’s problematic.

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